Yes, we can do work on ourselves, we ought to certainly, but there shouldn’t be this narrative that we have to do it all on our own before we are allowed to access love.

– Vienna Pharaon, LMFT

 

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ABOUT THIS EPISODE

How do we get the love we want? We turn to Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist Vienna Pharaon who believes that we all have the capacity for beautiful change and fulfilling relationships. In this episode, we explore how to achieve a relationship of deep connection, intimacy, and trust. Vienna discusses why we find ourselves stuck in patterns and how to create a greater sense of self and relational awareness. From this chat, take away helpful advice on turning conflict into connection, leaning into vulnerability, and finding ways to explore having conversations around sex and intimacy in a healthy and connective way. Vienna’s expertise is potent and powerful for all – whether you are currently in a relationship or not. She practices from a deep place of love with a style focused on warmth, compassion, intuition, optimism, and collaboration.

 

SHOW NOTES

Mindful Marriage and Family Therapy | Get the Love You Want Course | Mindful MFT Instagram

 

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Episode Transcription

Vanessa
How do we get the love we want? If you’re struggling in relationships, looking for love, or in a solid relationship, but always looking to learn more about how to deepen your bond, this is the episode for you. I speak with my wonderful friend Vienna Pharaon she’s a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and beautiful soul, her work and words run deep. Vienna has a way of making the most profound concepts simple and available. She will open up ideas about how to deepen into relationship, not only with those around you, but also with yourself.

Vanessa
I wanted to start with a question that I am really interested in because I sit with hundreds of people in groups. And the same themes keep coming up again and again and again. And so in your work Vienna, what are the themes that keep come up the most? What is the most common thread that is cut that that is present with all the couples that you work with, with respect to the struggles of relationships? And maybe if there’s something specific to now to this time, that would be great to hear. But what is the sort of underlying theme the underlying thread that you see again, and again and again.

Vienna
Certainly COVID has amplified things. The the time right now can feel really intense for many, but there’s so many directions that we can go with this question. And I always bring it back to our self awareness and our relational awareness. So you know, most people will present and they’ll say, you know, we have issues with communication, that’s probably something that is present in any relationship. And I hear it all the time. But when we actually zoom in on that further, right, what there’s a breakdown in actually understanding the self and understanding the other and then understanding the system. I’m a systems theorist, if you will, right. I’m a systems therapist I, I work with, even when I work with individuals, I’m still working with them within the context of the systems that they have been a part of, and the systems that are a part of now. And we tend to lack awareness around our programming, or conditioning, the blueprints, our operating system. And for me, I look through the lens of our family systems.

Vienna
For me, it’s wildly important to understand where we came from, obviously, there’s plenty of things that we experienced along the way that can happen outside of our family systems. But I really love to spend time and understanding our origin stories. And I think many of us do know the story, right? We can, we can retell, we can recount we can, we can explain who a parent was, or who, who the adult was in the system or who the sibling was, but we don’t necessarily take the time to actually experience and feel and consider how those things have come along with us. And so when you ask that question, right, we can talk about communication, we can talk about conflict, we can talk about intimacy, we can talk about finances, we can talk about the in laws, right? All of these things that can absolutely show up and are common. But what I find in every single one of those areas is that we have to always tune back into the self, the other and the systems that we were a part of growing up. So yeah, that’s, that’s my work. That’s where I go. And that’s where I find so many of our blocks is that we are not usually aware of what’s driving, why we do what we do, why we choose what we choose, and who we choose why we react the way that we react, why we disconnect or crave for connection in the way that we do. So I’ll pause there, because it’s a mouthful, but hopefully that makes sense to everyone who’s listening.

Vanessa
Yeah, no, that’s, that’s so beautiful. And I think that that doing your own work first, before you start examining a relationship to understand how you’re showing up is so important. And I think I’ve been really fascinated lately by the idea of re parenting or understanding at least, why we have the beliefs that we have, and feeling like maybe they’re not so fixed, maybe our personality, maybe we have a disposition, but our personality might be informed by an experience that we’d had. And as an adult, we get to choose, we get to choose whether, you know, we will continue to react in a certain way to a certain trigger, or whether we can decide, you know, I understand why I react that way, I understand where it came from. And now I have a choice as to whether I want to continue to react that way or not. Can you talk about that process of acknowledging recognizing patterns? And then what do you do to sort of unravel those so that patterns that could be disruptive or harmful or hurtful or painful, can lose their grip a little bit? On your decisions on your actions on your relationships?

Vienna
Yeah, I do really believe in our capacity for change, I believe that anybody can can create change, it just has to come from them. Right? If we’re caught in the space of trying to change others, we’re probably not going to get there. But I have the honor of getting to witness and watch and observe and walk alongside of so many people who are on this path of creating change in their lives. And so when you say, it’s not just this fixed, thing, I agree with that, what we have to tune into right, and and sort of what I was what I was getting at before is these origin stories, right? These, these stories of how our beliefs become ours. And so I always talk about how like, you know, when we’re kiddos, when we’re a tiny little humans in this world, we are getting so many of our beliefs and our narratives, expectations from the adults in our lives, right? Parents, caretakers, and we absorb those as our own. Of course we do, right? When we’re three years old, we’re not like, hey, parent x, I don’t agree with what you’re saying, like, we’re not challenging those things. We don’t know how to challenge those things. And so what we tend to do is we absorb it as truth. And because the adults in our lives are meant to be they ought to be safe and secure humans, right? We go into that, believing that what they’re giving us is truth, our job as adults, and I think you were you were saying this so well, Vanessa is is is that we have to begin to examine those things, right. Some of I always say like, not everything that was given to us is ours to keep, right? Not everything that was given to us is ours to keep our job is to examine this and to explore what it is that feels true, that is resonant with us, right? And what are some of the beliefs that we have to release? And and let go of, or shift or see that like, Oh, that’s actually unintegrated? Or that that was something that was passed down from a generation or many generations that came before me that I don’t actually agree with? Right. And so, you know, what, how do we begin to do some of this processing work? You know, for me, I think there’s so many different pillars of life. And there’s so many different areas that we can examine from our beliefs around gender, our beliefs around sex are beliefs around intimacy, conflict, communication, vulnerability, education, money, etc, right? Like that list can go on and on and on. And so as adults, we tune into to say, like, what are the messages I received around this? And some of those messages are going to be explicit, right? And some of them are going to be implicit, right? So some of them might have been really clearly spoken to you, as a child, here’s the expectation of you. Here’s what a girl does, here’s how a girl behaves. If you don’t make X amount of dollars, then you are a failure. If you have sex before you’re married, here’s what that means. Right? So, so many things might be explicitly stated. And other things. Yeah, they’re implied in what it is that we observe, right? And talk about, like, you know, we are part of these systems, and there’s expectations of us. But there’s also things that we witness things that we observe things that we pick up on, that may not have actually been spoken to us, but that we’ve that have been imprinted upon us, right? And so as adults, and anybody who’s watching now, right, I would encourage you to, to examine some of your beliefs and see how they shifted at all. Does something not actually feel in alignment for you?

Vanessa
Yeah, it’s so powerful Vienna. And it strikes me that one of the things that I’ve heard people say, is, well, I need to go work on myself. And then I can go be in relationship. And I think that’s true to a certain extent. But as you said, this is a lifelong endeavor. And one of my favorite quotes and I’m not going to quote it perfectly is if you think you’re enlightened, go spend a week with your family with some ways, right? Yeah. And in some ways, it’s the people closest to us that are the most challenging that trigger us the most, but it is, I think, in a way supportive of that idea of, of discovering who you are, and being an integrity because those triggers offer windows, right? And so there’s a real, you know, in order to know yourself and be an integrity, you have to allow yourself to be in those relationships be triggered, understand your patterns, see what’s happening. And I think it’s a level of awareness rather than a let me go become enlightened before I feel that I can be in relationship with others.

Vienna
I’ll say, you know, to a certain extent, right, like, I want to always Asterix, right? Like, if we’re in dynamics that are really traumatizing for us or hold trauma right, then then then maybe we don’t go back into that space. But getting back to where you started, you’re right, we get a lot of quotes around, you have to work on yourself, and you have to be complete on your own and right, all of these things need to happen before you can go out into the world and partner with someone else. Or you have to love yourself before someone else can love you. I would say it’s probably good not to hate yourself. But I don’t know that we have to be in this space of like, I fully love every part of myself, so that I can now allow another I believe that there’s an incredible amount of healing that we can absolutely do individually. But that relationally right is where there are these profound moments and transformational experiences that require someone else in that system. I’m sure there are plenty of people who have said this before. But this idea that, you know, if it’s relationships, that wound, right, it requires relationships to help heal, or we cannot we’re not in a one person model. Right? And that’s not I just don’t believe in that. Probably because I am a systems therapist, right? But like, you know, we’re not this one person model walking around this world trying to figure it all out on ourselves, right, we can certainly go on these individual journeys and do deep dives. And there’s beauty to that, in my opinion, right? There’s a necessity to having other individuals in this system, right in this model in order to continue this work. And I can tell you, just from personal experience, when I met my, my husband, I mean, I certainly liked myself, right? I was in a position where I didn’t have self hatred. I didn’t have a terrible inner critic at that time. But there are certainly parts of myself that when when those parts would show up when they would come forward in conflict. For example, I really didn’t like that part. And, and the way that she would behave, right and the way in which I would show up in that space felt really gross to me, right? It was it was I talked about this openly where it’s like, oh, like so much shame, shame. So much discussed. Seeing seeing this part of myself come forward. And really feeling like that part meant that I wasn’t lovable. It was it was so gross, right? That it was just like why would anybody actually choose your love you when you’re behaving this way, right? When this part of you is is acting out when when this part of you is is coming forward. And I remember a distinct moment in the relationship where he held such beautiful space right and I all I felt from him was love even when this part of me was was coming out. And you know, needing to be right and proving my point and doubling down and tripling down. I do that well. And and he was just sort of witnessing and watching and and setting a boundary with me, certainly. But like loving me still. And it was this really profound moment in my life where I was like, wow, this is exactly what I’m talking about, right? where it’s like, you are loving a part of me that feels like it’s unlovable. And there is healing that really happens in that space. Now, it’s not like, oh, that part should stay around forever. And I don’t need to work on that part. I do. But there was something so beautiful about experiencing in that moment to be like, Oh, I didn’t need to be this perfectly healed human, who had it all together all of the time, who never did things that were unhealthy or dysfunctional in a system, right that like through this other human being right was this new belief that I can be flawed, right, that I can do things that felt shameful for me right and still be loved by another human being? So I use that example because I think it speaks really well to what you’re describing here that that yes, we can do work on ourselves, we ought to certainly, but that it, there shouldn’t be this narrative that we have to do it all on our own before we are allowed to access love, right? before we’re allowed to go out there and actually receive from another person.

Vanessa
I want to come back to conflict, but I wanted to ask you about what I see a lot which is, you know, let’s say I’m in relationship with someone and there’s nothing really wrong. There was no abuse. There’s no major conflict, but we just feel like we’re ships passing in the night. We feel disconnected. And there’s just this feeling of I’m not quite getting what I want, I feel disconnected. But I don’t know how to create that connection. What would you say to someone in that position? To take what isn’t major conflict? But just feels a little bit sort of distance?

Vienna
Yeah, it’s a great question. I think a lot of times when we have these acute moments and things in our, in our lives, and in our relationships, it’s much easier for us to bring attention to it, that there is something that is really wrong and needs our attention. And so some of these more subtle subtleties in relationship or we’re just disconnected. We’re not as close, I would probably start in, in the space of what does connection, what does intimacy actually look like for you? And do we have any parts of the self that, that struggle with allowing connection and allowing intimacy, right, if we’re describing two ships passing eye vision, you know, to humans who are sort of doing their own thing, who maybe they’re working, maybe there’s children, and they have their roles, and they manage the things that they manage, and they have their own individual lives? And these are the things that are that are happening, but that there aren’t these openings, there aren’t these spaces where the relationship is actually getting nurtured? Right, that the relationship is actually creating space for intimacy to happen. And when I say intimacy, I’m talking about going innermost with self, right and going in our most with other, right, this this, right, this like, inner most process of what’s happening in my inner world, right, what’s happening in your inner world? And sometimes we don’t know actually how to access that, right? We’re just sort of like, oh, how was your day? It was good, good, good, good. Anything happened? No, not really, you know, or here’s what I had for lunch, or, you know, or it’s the facts of the day that the kids did this, the kids did that. Right. And it’s, it’s just sort of reporting, as opposed to actually dropping into what it is that we are feeling. And so I, you know, when when I when I have couples who are in that space, or individuals who are in that space, I want to understand what their relationship is to intimacy, to vulnerability to connection? And what are the fears that we have the concerns that we have? What are the threats that are present for us when it comes to moving in leaning in and bringing something forward? Right? What’s the story, right, a Narrative Therapy, we talk a lot about, sort of the storyline, or what’s the story that I hold, right that I have about if I bring this up to you? Right? If I, if I move towards intimacy, right, oh, that you’re gonna reject me, or that you have, you just don’t have any time for it, or that your schedule is so busy, and, and so you know, I’m not gonna, I’m just gonna feel rejected. Right, we want to tune in to what that story is, or what that fear is, like, What’s going to happen? If we actually connect? What will happen if I tell you how it is that I’m feeling? What will happen? If I tell you that I am struggling? You know, will I be disappointed in the way that you show up for me or don’t show up for me? Right? So we really want to tune into what that resistance serves, or what that block serves, because most of the time when we want something, but we’re not doing it, or that resistance or that blog is serving as some form of protection, right? I’m protecting myself from some story that I have. And maybe that story is made up. Maybe that story is based off of experiences that you’ve actually had with this with your partner. And maybe that story comes from a family system, right? Maybe that story has an origin story of what was it like to be connected or listened to? When I was growing up? What was it like for me to be connected? Or intimate with a parent? How did they listen to me? How did they show up for me? Or what’s the storyline there? Because these experiences and possibly these wounds or these pains that we have, they can come with us? Right? And they can become like we were talking about before sort of this belief that I hold around what happens when I try and do this? And so yes, what I would say to to this couple is for us to explore what those stories are to explore if there are fears or concerns around what it means to connect or be intimate to explore the experiences that they’ve had when it comes to connection, right. Did they never get connection? Did a parent or caretaker never tend to them or only tend to them at certain times when it was perfect for them? You know, we want to really understand again, these blueprints, these frameworks, both past right and then also the ones that have been created out of, you know, the relationship that we are that we are in currently.

Vanessa
Yeah, it’s so fascinating to hear you talk about this, because it’s something that I come across in my work all the time. So in a group where we say this is a space of permission to share what’s on your mind, and in your heart, I see a resistance to telling the truth. And we have to think about what is the underlying reason why we’re not saying out loud, something that’s present to us. And I think for many people, when they share the things that are difficult or shameful, they’re concerned about judgement, short, and they’re concerned that if I share who I really am, then people will run away, or they won’t love me or I’ll become rejected. And what I see again, and again, and again, is exactly the opposite happens, that peep when people are willing to show themselves to share themselves, they have much deeper connection to other human beings. And so I think, you know, it’s so interesting, because this space of permission is very important in my work, where we say those things that are spiraling in your head, here’s the place where you’re allowed to talk about them. And so a funny story, when I got to know you, Vienna, I thought, you know, I have a good relationship with my husband, but I should really go and see Vienna with my husband, because then I’ll be able to bring up the things that I want to talk about that are difficult to just sort of bring up at the dinner table or in the flow of things. Because Where is that place that’s designated as a place of permission to say, here’s where we talk about this. And then I said, silly me, I can create those spaces for myself and my husband. And so we do something where, you know, I ask him three questions, he asks me three questions. So those those spaces, those containers, can be created. But sometimes they have to be created consciously, right? Because it’s difficult to go from How is your day to I have this burning thing that I need to share? That might be difficult, we need a little space, and we need to make sure that kids jump come in, and you need to actually listen and focus on me, because I’m not talking about my day, this is something where I really need you to be present for me.

Vienna
Yeah, that’s it. That’s beautiful. And I want to acknowledge that you have a partner who wants to be a participant in that. And, and that from that, right, so much so much beauty can be birthed. Right. And I love that you guys ask three questions. It’s a, it’s a great exercise. And yeah, I mean, anybody who’s listening, I hope that they take that, take that tip from you. I am present to those who maybe don’t have that access from a partner. And I think it is why groups or therapy can be so needed. And so special, because there’s an environment where there is a setting there is of space where there is permission to bring it forward. And to trust that there is this container around it. But for those who are craving it right, from from an from an intimate partner, right, that that’s, you know, that’s the part that feels it’s so heavy, right? When we don’t have that in someone else, right? In the in the one person, right that we crave it from? Yes, I can get it from a dear friend, I can get it from my gosh, strangers, right, entering into a group dynamic, right? I, my husband and I lead retreats. And I’m always I’m always taken aback by how strangers enter in. And then within like, you know, 12 hours, right? There’s just this incredible container. And, people are opening up and sharing and feeling such a sense of safety and security. And right, like, what do we do when I still want this with my partner, and that person is not available to it or shut down to it or won’t participate in it. And I think that that space is one of the most frustrating spaces to be I get a lot of questions like, how do I get my partner to do X, right? And we talked a little bit like, I can’t change someone else, I can invite them into a space, we can explore in therapy, maybe what those blocks are. And I think that’s why a lot of times people will come into therapy is like, you know, I am not here to change you. And here’s the experience that I’m having in the relationship. And this is this is not working for me or this is not working for us, right, we can’t just stay far apart or we can’t stay distanced here and feel like we’re gonna grow together and continue to enjoy and have a pleasurable relationship together. If you are in that situation, if that’s your scenario, or you feel like you have a partner who is not engaged and who doesn’t want to participate or who was a bit avoidant, you’re probably gonna have a hard time pulling pulling that in. But what we do want to understand is that something about connection leading back to that other answer, it’s something about connection, something about intimacy is overwhelming to the system. Right? Staying disconnected, staying further away, staying on the surface is easier. And we want to understand why. Right? Maybe there is trauma there, maybe there is pain there. Maybe there is wounding there. So every time we’re like, come on, come on, come on, just do this, just do that everybody else is doing, you know, like, that can be blind, right? And it’s important for us to tune in to, there’s always a reason, right? why someone isn’t moving in that direction. So our job is not to yank them. Right? Our job is not to say, you know, to threaten them, right? Our job is to understand like, Are there associations with intimacy or connection that are actually dangerous, right? For some people in trauma, right? connection, closeness is danger. Right? And here we are, even though of course, intellectually, we’re able to recognize that there are differences we make between somebody who was maybe harmful or abusive, before versus a partner who’s just asking for connection? Yes, we get that up here. But might the might the body right, might the system be experiencing that differently? Right. So that’s something we really have to tune into. And sometimes it requires us working with a professional to navigate that.

Vanessa
What about in the moment of conflict? How can we navigate on a short term basis, when probably in that moment of conflict, your your nervous system is, you know, traumas are being triggered? And how do we in the short term, you know, what are some basic guidelines that people can use to net, first of all, just navigate it, and also maybe react in a way or act in a way that’s not making the situation worse for the people around you for yourself.

Vienna
So if you find yourself in a regular basis and conflict, it lets us know that we do need to go further back, right, so I’m gonna, I know that we probably don’t have the time to like, dive so into that piece. But if we’re in a cycle, right, if we’re in a loop, and we find ourselves in a pattern, right, we have a lot to unpack. So I always tell people that we should have some type of framework around conflict, but to talk about it, and to create it outside of conflict, right? So when you’re good when you’re feeling fine, when you are connected, when things are in a good place, right? We want to sit down and we want to talk about what’s what are our rules, you know, what are what are? Yeah, like? What are the rules of engagement, essentially, right, when it comes to conflict? And yeah, we know that sometimes in those moments, they go straight out the window, right? So obviously, there’s times where we just hit 100. And it’s, it’s over. But ideally, right? Can we have rules of how we want to engage with each other, and what this is going to look like, if and when something present, and to talk about what each individual needs in order to take good care of themselves.

Vienna
So for some people, right, it might be to actually pause to take the time out, maybe they want to go outside, go for a walk, go for a run, get into nature, take a shower, meditate, lay stretch, whatever you’re tuning into, like, what is it that I need in this moment, that is going to take good care of my mental emotional health. Now, why sometimes that can be confronting for another is that if there is an abandonment wound for someone, and a partner is saying, I need space, right? I need to leave, right? That can activate something. So again, why we talk about this outside of conflict is really important to say, hey, what I need to actually ground and regulate and stabilize myself is x, y and z, right? And so I can maybe predict that if I were to go and do that, that might feel like I’m leaving you. I want you to know I’m not leaving you. I’m coming back, right. So when we take this pause, when we take this timeout is an adult timeout, where we do need to come back right, we do need to create some type of safety and security ideally, for the system. If we have access to it again, I know sometimes we’re in conflict, and we don’t have access to creating that. But if we have access to it, we want to do everything in our power to try to create some type of safety and security. We’re coming back in. We’re going to go reflect we’re going to go journal, we’re going to take a little bit of time to just think about what it is that just happened. And then let’s come back together when we’re down a bit. Right.

I do like the concept of creating the rules and regulations of what conflict looks like. What is off limits? Can we also take time outside of conflict to explore the origins of conflict, right? How did our families fight? What did it look like? What am I afraid of having happen in this space? Maybe we grew up in a family system where everybody just brushed it under the rug and we never talked about it right. So I need us to talk about it right like so we have to voice a name, what it is that we crave and desire in order to feel safe. And in order to feel like we’ve moved through something.

Vanessa
Super helpful, super helpful. I think I’ve, I’ve learned this with my kids that we don’t talk about the the the tantrum during the tantrum, we need to give a lot of space before we can talk about it, and then and then it can be productive.

Vienna
I will I’ll say one more thing, because I really love the use of our senses. For me, sound and scent are really powerful. So so maybe putting a diffuser on or listening to classical music, for example, right? Like, how does that shift your nervous system? Right? How do those things might you want to put something like a fabric on your body that actually feels soothing for you? So right, and so you can play with that a little bit? Again, I know it’s, it’s a maybe a funny thing to think about it when we’re in conflict. But again, we’re having to move the system right into safety. So to play with, what are the things that do make me feel safe and grounded? So I do like, using the senses.

Vanessa
I wanted to ask about how you help people navigate, you’re helping people navigate how to be in relationship. But how do you help people navigate whether they should be in relationship? And how to figure out when it’s time to let a relationship go?

Vienna
Yeah, it’s such a it’s such a sensitive space to be in. You know, I think a lot of times, I mean, most of our most of our narratives and messages are that once you are in one, you should try to stay in it. That’s what we have been given. And that when it ends, that it’s a failure. What Listen, whether this is a marriage or a partnership, or you’re dating someone, right is like the whole point, right? The messaging that we’ve been like, hit with forever, is that it starts and you better make sure that it doesn’t end, right. Because that’s heartbreak and failure, etc. We’re up against a lot, right? When we’re feeling into might this dynamic be something that stops here that ends here? Might it just be something that has walked me at or walked us through chapter a chapter or many chapters of life? I am not a marriage therapist who believes that every relationship needs to stay together. And I know that that might be confronting for some people, right to hear that. There are absolutely times where relationships ought to end. And and that’s not always just in cases of abuse, you know, abuse or infidelities, for example. Like I think our society has a couple of things that we’re like, okay, fine, where there isn’t a judgement, right? where it’s like, okay, it’s okay for you to leave this person or it is okay for you to to end this relationship. We are having to stretch that a little bit. Now, of course, it’s not to jump at the first sign of, Oh, this was hard. So I’m out of here, right? Obviously, this is a very nuanced conversation. Part of our work is to to figure out whether or not the staying is our healing, or whether the leaving is our healing. Right? That that’s so important, right? Like take that in receive those sentences, right is the staying my healing is the leaving my healing.

Some of us are quick to go. And part of our growth there might be to begin to discern, or to begin to explore what is so confronting about staying right, what is actually being required of us. And then for others, we might be people who had down and no matter what, and we can figure it out, and we can do know everything. And we’ve we had to be the glue, and we’re not going anywhere because I have to stay right and, and maybe that is something that extends from a family system role that we had. Right? And so there’s so many questions to explore in this space. What is important in therapy, at least is that we look at all right, we begin to talk about and we begin to process, sort of all these scenarios, and understand what is coming up for us there. I wish that I could answer this, like more specifically for you, Vanessa, but I, I it’s very hard to just because there’s so much sensitivity here. And I want to be really careful that I’m not just saying, you know, do do these three things to explore that because each person is so unique. And there’s such a personal story and experience that that lives inside of them that needs to such tenderness and nuance and the exploration of it.

Vanessa
I love your answer Vienna because it’s almost the same as all of your answers, right, which is, in all of these situations, we need to take the time and honor where it all comes from. I do want to, because I can’t leave this without asking you about sex. So how do you see the sexual intimacy side playing into relationships? And how do people, you know, in the context of the process that you’ve outlined, of, you know, knowing yourself, knowing your partner, how does it play in?

Vienna
Oh, gosh, it’s such a huge, it’s such a huge component. And so easy not to talk about and so easy to find ourselves in that disconnection, or just in the pattern, right that like, okay, we sort of go through the motions, and maybe we have sex here, and here and on these days, or this is what it looks like, right? But there isn’t, there isn’t growth, right, that comes from it. And it’s, you know, when we talk about sex, we also have to have the conversation of desire, right, and fantasy, and, and all of that, that that has to come into play.

I love that you’re like, as you answer every question, I’m seeing the pattern here of like, we’ve got to go back and explore. Thank you for calling that forward. At least as a start point, right? We want to understand our messages around sex. I named it really actually early on in our conversation of like, going through the beliefs, right, the things that were given to us. What did the adults tell us about sex? Might religion be a component here that needs to be explored? Is exploration of the self something that that where there was permission? Was there something that was shameful about that past sexual experiences? Might there be sexual abuse? It might be might there be sexual traumas that are involved, I can’t tell you how many people have that experience. And partners don’t know about it.

I mean, obviously, it requires a ton of safety and security to dive into those conversations with another person. But if we don’t know, the inner world, and the inner map, and these experiences that are housed, right in somebody’s body, then we’re very blind going into this experience, and having expectations or wishes or desires of our, our sexual experience in our relationship it’s very easy, like I said before, to just sort of stay apart and separate, and to just go through the motions and have the sex that we have, and it’s okay enough, and, you know, that’s sort of where it and but we don’t actually explore with each other in a way that is connective, safe, and potentially, like really transcendent, right, I think a lot of times people will talk about how, you know, sexual experiences can absolutely be these transcendent experiences.

If it feels really scary to consider having any of these conversations with a partner, I would encourage doing it with someone else, you know, I would encourage bringing in, you know, maybe it’s a sex therapist that you work with, or if you’re not ready to do that with a partner, or even just going to a therapist, to talk about your own experiences, and to become begin to be with that differently and unpack that differently. Because it is a huge area, of course of, you know, intimate, romantic relationship. People in dynamic oftentimes have very different experiences and expectations of it. It’s very rare for me to meet a couple who wants sex exactly the same way as the other person exactly at the same time. They all have the things their fantasies match up perfectly. They have no shame, no that right, like, I don’t know if I’ve met that couple yet and have to think about it. So my point is like, we have differences, you know, if we’ve had sexual experiences before, you know, our current partner, sort of remembering that, like, what came before is not this person to right, a lot of times, oh, what, please this other person, or what I liked about this experience with another human is not the same, that this is not the same person in front of you right now. And so applying the things that you have taken from the past, and applying them to who is in front of you right now is a dangerous path for us to go down.

Vanessa
Vienna this has been such a beautiful conversation. And I think you’ve provided such an opening for people who want to explore this work. And part of the reason we named the talk get the love you want is because I know that you and your husband, have a course have an offering called Get the love you want. And so I wonder if you could just talk about it for a minute.

Vienna
Yeah, my husband and I created this course because we wanted it to be an accessible thing. So many people don’t want to come into therapy or Yeah, the consistency the financial component of it is something that’s that’s hard for for many. And so this course is, is a six week course you can go at your own pace. You take your time, there’s people who do it over a year they do it with one partner and then they do it with another thereafter. But we dive into self and relational awareness, vacuums probably covered a few of the things that we dive into in the course. But we talked about self and relational awareness. So diving into your family system and understanding many of the origin stories that we talked about here today. And then we also talk about conflict, navigating conflict and moving it from conflict into connection. boundaries, is another hot topic that we didn’t really touch on too much today. And then also sex and intimacy. You know, there’s 12 modules in that course. It’s videos from us emails, journal prompts, worksheets, etc. It’s a beautiful course I actually very proud of the course. And once we once we finished it, I was like, this is actually like, there’s a tremendous amount of work and in this and value and, and sort of richness to the work. This is literally for any human who is like curious about these components of relationship, right. So whether you are single partnered with it does not matter what their relationship status is, you will you will receive the same benefit.

Vanessa
Well, I’m personally excited to dive into it, and I wanted to thank you for being with us. It’s always such a pleasure to talk to you, and to hear your wisdom and the warmth with which you share it.

Vienna
Thank you for having me.

Vanessa
Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, we welcome you to stay close and discover more of our offerings. Check us out on Instagram at NUSHU or visit nushu.com for more.

 

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About Vienna Pharaon

Vienna Pharaon is a licensed marriage and family therapist, writer, and speaker based in New York City. She is the founder of Mindful Marriage and Family Therapy, a private practice that specializes in working with individuals and couples on issues related to relationships, self-awareness, and personal growth.

Pharaon is well known for her work in the field of relationships and mental health, and has been featured in publications such as The New York Times, The Huffington Post, and Self Magazine. She is also a regular contributor to a number of online publications, and has been featured as a guest expert on a variety of podcasts and radio shows.

Pharaon’s approach to therapy emphasizes mindfulness, emotional intelligence, and self-compassion. She believes that individuals and couples can achieve greater happiness and fulfillment in their lives by developing a deeper understanding of themselves and their relationships, and by cultivating a greater sense of self-awareness and self-compassion.

In addition to her work as a therapist, Pharaon is also an active speaker and educator. She has given talks and led workshops on topics such as emotional intelligence, communication skills, and mindfulness, and is a sought-after expert in the field of mental health and relationships.

 

About The Origins of You by Vienna Pharaon

From licensed therapist and popular Instagram relationship expert Vienna Pharaon comes a profound guide to understanding and overcoming wounds from your family of origin – the foundation of how we relate to others, ourselves, and the world around us.

None of us had a perfect childhood; we are all carrying around behaviors that don’t serve us – and may in fact be hurting us. But it doesn’t have to be that way, says licensed Marriage and Family Therapist Vienna Pharaon. Our past might create our patterns, but we can change those patterns for the better with the right tools.

In THE ORIGINS OF YOU, Pharaon has unlocked a healing process to help us understand our family of origin – the family and framework we grew up within – and examine what worked (and didn’t) in that system. Certain dysfunctions (or “wounds”) in that family of origin will manifest in our adult life in surprising ways, from work challenges to interpersonal struggles. But when armed with the knowledge about our past, we can rewire our programming to meaningfully improve our relationships and our lives.

It doesn’t matter whether you’ve been in therapy for decades, or whether therapy isn’t for you. It doesn’t matter if you have plenty of memories from childhood, or struggle to remember anything at all. All that matters is your willingness to look inside yourself, and your determination to find a new way forward. Complete with guided introspection, personal experiences, client stories, frameworks for having difficult conversations, and worksheets to complement each chapter, THE ORIGINS OF YOU will teach you how your family can both build you up and break you down – and how you can heal yourself for good.