The people whose businesses you see grow to be really successful often come out of a point where they had a problem and they solved it for themselves.

– Joanna Coles 

 

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ABOUT THIS EPISODE

There is no doubt: things are changing, and fast. The way we conduct business, how we consume information, how we connect with each other, and everything in between. Who better to help us navigate these changing times than Joanna Coles? An award-winning journalist, author, TV producer and Chief Content Officer of Hearst Magazines from 2016 to 2018, Joanna has been a close and curious observer of trends, cultural shifts, and emerging ideas for decades.

She talks to us about the ways global brands have discovered new creative avenues to do business, who the most exciting entrepreneurs to watch right now are, and what qualities prime those individuals for success.

 

SHOW NOTES

Joanna Coles Instagram | Joanna Coles Twitter | The Bold Type

 

 

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Episode Transcription

Joanna Coles:
I think of the world now as pre smartphone and post smartphone. That’s the big division in our lives, I think. And it separates generations as well as it separates our attention spans in a way. But I think that books are the perfect antidote to the smartphone, whereas oddly, a magazine doesn’t feel like that.

Vanessa Cornell:
Welcome to The NUSHU Podcast. I’m your host, Vanessa Cornell. I invite you with love into this space to learn and grow with me. And for a brief moment of the day, come home to yourself. There is no doubt things are changing and fast. The way we engage with each other, the way we consume information, the way that we engage in our personal lives and in business. Pivot seems to be the action verb of the moment. There is no one I know who is more curious and insightful in terms of changing culture, then Joanna polls, as an award winning journalist, magazine editor, influencer producer and former Chief Content Officer at Hearst, Joanna has been a close and curious observer of trends, cultural shifts, emerging ideas for decades, this conversation was simply fascinating. It felt incredibly relevant and important to anyone navigating the way the world is changing with respect to how we do business and market, how we connect, how we consume, and how we position ourselves as leaders and entrepreneurs in this ever changing world. Thank you for being here with us. How has the workplace changed as you’ve seen it, everybody understands the workplace has changed. But really, what do you see as permanent, what’s just temporary, I know increased flexibility and working from home. But what other dynamics have you seen in the workplace and the way that people work, and all the people that you’ve spoken to?

Joanna Coles:
I do think it’s very interesting to see colleagues at home. And I think it’s probably been very helpful for bosses, to see their staffs family life, and it reminds them that they have a family life instead of it being solely about work. And I think it’s very useful for employees to see their boss’s family life. And to understand that just because they’re your boss doesn’t mean that they have a perfect life, but they’re always in control. And I think the mixing of both domestic and work life on one screen has actually changed the formality of the workplace. And I do remember I had a woman I employed when I was a married player who had worked in a very male organization before she came to us. And she said that she would, to her shame hang up on her kids when she was on the phone with her kids and the male boss came in, because he had zero tolerance for her talking to her children. And I think that there will be more sympathy and understanding around flexibility that all families need, whether you’re a boss, or whether you’re a junior employee, to take into consideration your personal life. And I remember actually doing a lot of investor calls for the Northern Star companies, I have to caps that tend to jump on me. And the strangely drawn whenever I’m on a live zoom, and they kind of jump on me a bit like Kaito from the Pink Panther, they dive down. And a couple of people initially were very anxious about this. And they were like, this is very unprofessional, and I was like, I am working from home, I have to catch this is what they do. Otherwise, I’m going to be constantly trying to pat them down. And it actually became a talking point with lots of investors who would then sheepishly show me, the family dog sitting at their feet. And at the time, we were raising investment for a dog business called Bark Box, and it couldn’t have been a better icebreaker. So I think the visibility into colleagues lives, and what they’re often putting up with, that they maybe don’t raise in the office will lead to more sympathy from both employees and from bosses.

Vanessa Cornell:
The sort of humanization of your colleagues, right? Yeah. And that obviously impacts women and men, because men have families too, and kids who call them and dogs to jump on them. But I think for women, you know, where flexibility has been the key and been very difficult to access. And so I think a lot of women give up on staying in the workplace when they have to make a choice. Do you feel like this is going to change the landscape for women who want to stay in the workplace, but have more flexibility, if and when they choose to do that if it’s connected to having a family or just in terms of their life lifestyle.

Joanna Coles:
I’m extremely concerned that 1.8 million senior women have left the workplace because the burden of the childcare fell to them when schools were closed. But I think companies now are much more understanding that people actually can work from home and and not just sitting on their sofa eating bonbons and But flexibility, depending on the job makes an enormous amount of sense for future workforces. It allows companies to, you know, spend less on real estate, less on energy, it’s better for people’s carbon footprints.

Vanessa Cornell:
It does feel like it’s never going all the way back to the way it was.

Joanna Coles:
I do you think that people who want to get ahead or want access to senior people in an office and you don’t get that on Zoom, one of the things I’ve heard from a lot of junior people is that the only senior person they’ve met is often the person that they’re reporting to. So they’re missing out on opportunities to talk to people higher up in the company, and in different divisions, I think it’s clear that if you stay out of the office entirely, it will be much harder to be promoted, because you will have much less exposure to other people. And you’re then very reliant on the person above you pushing you or recommending you to other people, which let’s face it, people often don’t do part because they’re not thinking about it, or partly because selfishly, they want you to stay doing what you’re doing. So I think the flexibility again, depending on the job and the people is going to be key. But I do think that companies now realize that it’s okay to be flexible.

Vanessa Cornell:
Yeah, when you’re at work around the water cooler or you’re in a room over lunch, you’re building social capital. And then when you’re on Zoom online, you’re spending social capital. So you do to a certain extent, need that sort of informal banter. And that relationship building that can’t happen in a zoom with an agenda necessarily.

Joanna Coles:
Zooms are unbelievably efficient,. I would say that the Northern Star Acquisition Company, in fact that we could do investor calls, 12 of them a day, back to back on the efficient. But there was zero social time at the end of the super transactional, which was incredibly efficient. But I think as we go forward, we want to make sure that we have that kind of human interaction and lace, as I think about human lace, the connective tissue that keeps us all in a world together. Really important.

Vanessa Cornell:
Yeah, it feels like in the last year if you either pivoted or for the most part, you were out of business. And so what have you seen in terms of major shifts or surges of creativity, right? a pivot is, in essence, a rethinking or re ideation of your business. And it feels like there might be a lot of creativity that comes out of this time by just sheer force of necessity.

Joanna Coles:
I think creativity two takes two forms: 1. Doing it for doing other people, or you’re actually spending quite a lot of time just thinking on your own. And we live in such distracted times, it’s quite difficult to get that period of isolation where you actually focus and get work done. So I do think for a lot of people, this has been a period of enormous focus that actually, if you’re older and relatively well set up, you could really take time to think about what you wanted to do. And actually turn to the book you wanted to write or turn to the paintings you wanted to create, or, you know, turn to the digital site, you wanted to create all the community you wanted to create online. But I think for a lot of other people, creativity comes by talking to other people. And so that’s been a mixed year for that. But I think in terms of pivoting, we’ve seen people’s habits change, it takes an enormous amount of energy to shift someone’s habit unless you have something like a global pandemic, which stops us traveling, which keeps us all at home. And we have to behave in different ways. And I think where I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about and spending some business time is in looking at the incredible shift in the way we consume, and especially online. So looking at subscription businesses, looking at delivery systems, looking at businesses that were selling in traditional retail spaces, which were completely closed, and then pivoted to direct to consumer where you get much more data, you have a much more powerful relationship with the consumer. And I think that is forever going to change our shopping habits. And I think, you know, in the next two to three years, we’ll all realize we’re buying so much stuff on subscription. We’re almost never going into retail outlets unless something is driving us there very specifically. And I think retail in particular is going to have to completely rethink how they do business.

Vanessa Cornell:
So on that thought, is retail dead. Is it a matter of time, or will it transform?

Joanna Coles:
I think retails in the process of transformation, and it’s largely moving online. And before COVID I think 14% of sales were online post COVID or as we’re coming out of COVID. It’s now 30% of all goods bought online. So that’s a doubling, which is an extraordinary number in the space of just a year. And I think it changes our high streets, it changes our malls, it changes what we think of doing when we go to shops, it puts an enormous amount of pressure on traditional retail to try and come up with events or experiences that work for consumers. I think you will see the changing of the American street the changing of the purchasing of malls. And I think once you get out of the habit of going shopping, you don’t go back to it breaking habits is so hard. And once they’re broken, you don’t go back.

Vanessa Cornell:
What about print media? You know, you sort of grew up in print media. And you mentioned that people’s habits are changing and the way that they’re consuming. It’s changing in the way that they’re consuming goods. But I think it’s also changing in the way that they’re consuming information. And so what do you see? And if somebody came to you and said, I want to build a media company today, what does that look like for tomorrow?

Joanna Coles:
I mean, look, the smartphones changed all our lives, it is the most extraordinary thing. It’s almost as important as fire in terms of inventions for how we do things. It’s incredibly hard to compete with, it’s just a box that connects you with your friends, it serves up endless content, it’s incredibly well programmed to understand what you like and what you respond to. So it’s almost impossible to put it down next to that print magazine. Unfortunately, because I love them, I grew up on them, they were packed full of all sorts of exciting discoveries, as well as great journalism, it’s very hard for them to compete now against the smartphone and against everything that’s on the smartphone in terms of content. So I don’t feel hopeful about the future of print, I wish I could say I do I think that magazines have to be made to be much more special, less frequency is going to make them more affordable, because they’re expensive to produce. But it’s kind of sad. But there’s something about the time frame of a magazine that no longer works in our modern world. By the time it’s arrived, it feels old, it doesn’t have the currency that a daily newspaper does. And I think we’ve seen a bit of a resurgence of newspapers, Facebook and Google, as we know, suck the advertising market out. But just in terms of attention. If you spend any time on Instagram or Twitter, you know how important it is to feel on top of those, certainly the newspaper format online, but I think it’s going to be very hard for magazines to compete with the smartphone. What about books, interestingly, are the perfect corollary to the smartphone right? If the smartphone is all about distraction, and being able to multitask and do many things at once, the book is the perfect opposite, it calms you down, it’s actually very good for you to hold something and make eye contact, actually the neural pathway in the brain, it’s very reassuring to do that. Figures wise, we know that books are actually selling as well as they’ve ever sold. And partly, they’re being much more beautifully produced. Now I think publishers had to step up and realize they had to really make books feel like exciting objects that you wanted to pay for, especially in hardback. But I think they are even more useful than they were pre smartphone. And I think if the world now has pre smartphone and post smartphone, that’s the big division in our lives, I think. And it separates generations as well as it separates our attention spans in the way. But I think that books are the perfect antidote to the to the smartphone, whereas oddly, a magazine doesn’t feel like that.

Vanessa Cornell:
Let’s talk about generations, because I have a 12 year old daughter, who tells me this brand is the thing, it’s everywhere. It’s the most important brand. People five years older, don’t know about it. And so when you think about marketing, and branding and influencers and trying to build brands, are you thinking about generations, as in, you know, 20 or generations? Are you are you starting to narrow that gap? And are there distinct, buying patterns and following patterns that are even more specific, because of this whole social media explosion?

Joanna Coles:
I think there are micro generations, right, you have the kids that are post Instagram, or didn’t have Instagram at high school, and then got Instagram at college, but their college life was big enough that they could absorb Instagram without quite the same impact that it has on a 13 year old or 14 year old where it could really have a distinct impact. And then when Snapchat came in, I’m on the board of Snapchat and I’ve been heavily involved with the company for six or seven years now. And it’s been incredibly thoughtful about the impact it’s had on young people but I literally think there are micro generations and they are defined by the arrival of Facebook, the arrival of Instagram, TikTok is the latest. And so you just see these generations that are very specifically tied to social media of their specific age. And you can see people you know, phasing out to Facebook because it’s become your grandmother’s social media now, and obviously TikTok and snap very much of the moment. And different brands or mostly different influencers. People have different languages. If you’re following certain people, you’re picking up their use of emojis, they use the Bitmoji, which is becoming a huge thing. So I think it’s absolutely fascinating and it’s a very good question and why that people really don’t think about enough. And it’s absolutely crucial for brands much, much harder for them to stay engaged now with consumers, which is why a direct to consumer option is so much better for a brand, because at least they have the direct contact with the consumer. And they can see when the consumer is becoming less engage. And it’s easier than ever to launch your brand on social media now, so there’s much more competition for our attention. So you constantly have to stay above the fold, I was talking to a marketing officer the other day for my company. And we were talking about the potency with which brands tend to email you. And he was saying it is all about being in the top half of the screen. So when you get your emails, you and your brand you kind of want to be here, which is why some brands choose to email you 20 times a day, because there is just the realization that you’re being bombarded by people and they want to be on your screen when you pick it up and look at your email. And that’s what they have to do to stay there. And then of course, there are other brands that say, No, we only want to email you once a week, it will be much more effective. But the data certainly for this brand, which was a grocery brand showed that if you were emailing people up to 20 times a day, you would be on their own page once they opened, you know, once you open your email and saw it. So that’s why you get bombarded. And of course the you know, the brilliance of saying 15% of sign up. And of course you sign up with what the 15% but then you’re constantly getting the emails you don’t want. And you’re getting these messages all the time. And again, very difficult for kids to manage this.

Vanessa Cornell:
That’s fascinating to me, because the second it comes, I know that it is worth my time to unsubscribe, I go through the whole process.

Joanna Coles:
I love being targeted, I would much rather be targeted, they get random emails for stuff that I’ll never ever think about and never wants to buy. So I think it’s incredibly effective. And I’d much rather do it than actually drift around a department store sifting through things where you can’t find anything. But I just don’t want to be targeted too much. And what I wanted the brand is smart enough to know how many times Am I going to buy a sweater or cardigan or bad and just ease off a little bit? Yeah.

Vanessa Cornell:
So you mentioned how easy it is to launch a brand. And sometimes it feels like it’s both easier to launch a brand. And more difficult because everyone else is doing it. And that there’s just so much competition and so much noise in the market. And so when you talk to entrepreneurs, people who want to launch brands, what are the things that are most important to you where you think this could actually succeed?

Joanna Coles:
I spent an enormous amount of time talking to founders and entrepreneurs. And it’s incredibly interesting. And I think first of all, you have to be solving a problem that the people whose businesses you see grow to be really successful, often come out of a point where they had a problem, and they solved it for themselves. Actually BarkBox is a really good example of that, that Matt Meeker, one of the co founders had 140 pound Great Dane and he lived in New York City, and you couldn’t take your dog into pet stores, because the dog was just too big. And he could never find toys that were robust enough for his dog who’s called Hugo, who would literally kind of demolish the toy with one shake of his teeth in his head. And so Matt thought, I’m gonna make dog toys for big dogs that they can’t just rip apart. And out of that group is less which we are, you know, happy to merge with. And we’ll be dispatching shortly and you will be able to trade bark on the New York Stock Exchange. That’s a really robust business that is now turning into a personalized dog food business because Matt with his huge dog couldn’t find dog food that he felt was genuinely nutritional for his dog. And they started looking at different kinds of dog foods and figuring out they could do better and they could disrupt a space that had been the longest time super stable. So I think the real issue or a real problem is really important. And you’ve got to have founders who really wants work hard, because it’s incredibly difficult. And you can’t just hire a staff and expect them to do everything. You need an enormous amount of discipline. And you have to, you know, be at home when everybody else is out at a party.

Vanessa Cornell:
Yeah. The work ethic.

Joanna Coles:
Yeah, the work ethic. That’s really what I meant. Yeah.

Vanessa Cornell:
So let’s talk a little bit about the space that I’m in the wellness space, the mental health space, it feels like there’s tremendous opportunities right now what about sort of an expectation of health and happiness in the workplace and how that interacts with that work ethic that you were talking about? I know that there’s a, you know, there’s a generation and at the extreme, it’s like, well, you know, I’m not inspired by that project. I don’t want you to staff me on that.

Joanna Coles:
This is a huge generational gap, isn’t it because there are the boomer generation who worked incredibly hard to get where they are and don’t understand when younger people People don’t want to work that hard because they’ve looked at their parents and thought, I don’t want to be like you I want more freedom, I don’t need stuff in the way that you have stuff, I don’t need a car. Because I can use Uber, I don’t need to buy a house because I can rent one or I can. Airbnb, something. And so I think that younger generations have a different relationship with owning stuff, which means that you’re less reliant on the monthly salary. They say, the three great addictions are sugar, heroin, and a monthly salary. And if you can wean yourself off the need for a monthly salary, it gives you an enormous amount of freedom and choice over what you do every day. And I think Gen Z in particular, and younger millennials don’t trust institutions. So they don’t believe the corporation has your back. And that corporations spell I think, slightly more loyal to their employees 20 years ago, because they were less likely to churn out than they do now. Now, I think there’s a different relationship between the corporate institution and its staff, because staff feel they have more choice. And also, what’s fascinating is, you know, if you think about it, who was the most influential employee in America over the last 10 years, it was probably Susan Fowler, the young woman at Uber, who wrote the who, having been trying to raise issues within the company, and not being listened to then wrote a blog post criticizing Uber, laying out the bro culture, and inadvertently brought down the entire management of the company and the board and got the founder kicked out. And that’s extraordinary power for an employee to have. I don’t think she set off to do that she set off to have a conversation and the whole thing got out of control. But I think younger workforces now understand that with the with the single tweet or a single social media post, they can potentially unravel a company. And bosses realize that too, which is why there’s much more dance around political correctness at work about kicking out paralysis, really thinking much more about our our staff stress Do we need to give them more resources should we be paying attention to biases that have been institutionalized that we have just forever ignored. And so it’s an incredibly interesting opening of this relationship between employer and institution between employee and employer.

Vanessa Cornell:
Fascinating. I want to talk a little bit about the beauty and fashion spaces where you have spent a lot of time and continue to spend a lot of time It feels like what was once a very narrow definition of beauty has really exploded and expanded. We’re not in that sort of skinny model of the 80s and 90s anymore only but at the same time, it feels like there’s the way that images are being marketed to young people is creating evermore pressure to look like act like have a curated feed like have a lifestyle like these influencers. So in one way it’s broadening and the other way it feels like it’s narrowing where children are being shown, not just abstract images in a magazine that they no they’re not, but images that pretend to be someone who they could be but are also not real. So where do you see that going?

Joanna Coles:
The velocity of it is different, right? It’s just coming at you at all times. And look magazines definitely had all sorts of imagery in it that in them that was distorted You know, there was a lot of airbrushing and Photoshop when I certainly got Marie Claire, which was my first editor in chief job, I tried to really pull back on that in fact, funnily enough, we once put Jessica Simpson on the cover with no makeup at all. And nobody believed that she had no makeup and the problem is that when you’re using celebrities, they usually celebrities because they’re incredibly perceived as outlandish Lee pricy which is why they ended up being Jessica Simpson or Britney Spears or Angelina Jolie and so people don’t believe that’s actually what they look like in real life. But I always try to minimize any airbrushing because I remember how I was influenced as a kid, I was constantly on some kind of nonsensical diet to try and look like someone else, which which was ridiculous. And I think the velocity now is really very difficult to navigate for parents. What’s good about what’s happening now though, is there are many more people out there showing themselves and I think there are a lot of real people showing themselves and I think it’s fantastic that we’ve got many more many more shapes and sizes and colors than we ever had even 10 years ago. The damage is broken. And thank goodness for that. So overall, I think it’s a good thing. And what’s fascinating about things like Tick Tock is people picking up, or snap spotlight, picking up a phone and performing something and you suddenly see this incredible exposure of talent out there that we had always thought was simply the preserve of celebrities. But in fact, it turns out that all sorts of people who can do this stuff, too, and it’s great to have a window into ordinary people doing things. But I think for young women in particular, it’s really hard to navigate. And, you know, I think we should be teaching social media literacy in schools, we should be teaching people how to use this device, how to understand how people use this device on us to keep us addicted to it. I have found actually, during COVID, I pretty much come off social media, because I didn’t find it helpful for my own state of mind. And I also thought, why am I doing this for the benefit of Twitter, as opposed to my own benefit? Why don’t I take the time and do something more productive, it’s so two dimensional to be on the phone all the time, it’s not sufficiently participatory for the development of all sorts of things for kids. And so I think getting them outside, getting them into nature is the perfect corollary to this knowing that they’re not going to give this up that this is going to be part of their life, that it’s very difficult to have a child who’s disconnected from their friends by not being allowed to phone but making sure that you are super aggressive about getting them out in nature, if you’ve got access to it, it’s super important.

Vanessa Cornell:
Yeah, you’re much farther down the road with your kids than I am. But I have learned even with my younger kids that telling them not to do something does not work. And that, helping them understand why and what’s happening in their brain and who’s marketing to them, and then they get to make their own decision. But just empowering them with the information is much more helpful, because simply nagging them is completely unsuccessful, at least in my experience.

Joanna Coles:
Right, given that kids got phones earlier now, I think creating real boundaries around them from an early stage, and then as a parent trying to stick to so if you decide that you want device free meals, which we always managed to do, but everybody had to be off their devices. I couldn’t be on my phone answering work issues. I had to put my phone down too.

Vanessa Cornell:
Absolutely. Absolutely. So we have a little bit of time left. And I really want to talk a little bit about our demographic as in women who aren’t 20, we spent a lot of money still. And do you think that people have caught up to that? Do you think that women who are having kids pre during post menopausal are being marketed to in a way that appeals to them? Or are we still trying to market to the 30 year old and trying to sort of say, we’re going to market to you as if you’re 30? Because you want to be 30? Which is in my case, not the case?

Joanna Coles:
Yeah, nobody who’s in their 40s, or 50s, wants to be 30. Again, like we may want the body of a 30 year old and I would like my skin when I was 30. But I certainly don’t want to be me when I was 30. No, I think marketing for the most part has done a pretty bad job of staying in touch with where women are, which is often in a much more powerful phase of their life with much more disposable income than they have when they’re in their 20s or 30s. And yet, we’re constantly patronized by imagery of younger women, or a woman who’s 25, who went gray prematurely. And she’s presented as kind of being 55. I worked very briefly at a brilliant magazine called more which was aimed for women over the age of 40, which eventually ended up closing because they couldn’t find enough advertising support for it. And yet, the readers of all the readers I’ve ever worked with, where the wealthiest they have the most control over their disposable income, their kids, you know, gone off to college, they had all the big bills were behind them. And they were now really focused on themselves. They wanted to look great and feel great and go on holidays and travel and join expensive gyms. And they were patronized by media buyers, and those sorts of, you know, 20s largely men as to be said, who had no understanding of them and sold them through the lens solely of their moms or grandmothers. And it was very disappointing to me. I was very sad when more close because it had such a good readership, a passionate readership of women who come into their own lives after their kids have left home. And it’s a group that frequently says it feels invisible, and they are treated as if they are invisible.

Vanessa Cornell:
That feels like an opportunity for somebody.

Joanna Coles:
Yep, I think it’s a huge opportunity. And again, it will be easier with social media because you can target people more directly.

Vanessa Cornell:
Yeah, yeah. Okay, I have a couple of quick round questions for you. Okay. You ready? Exciting skincare brands?

Joanna Coles:
So someone gave me a new skincare brand called Dh. And it’s by someone called Darya Hope. I quite like them. I don’t know if it’s new or not. The Neova line is called DNA Skin Repair and it seems pretty effective. I love those sheet masks. I love the new pots, and I have my old favorites. I love the Fresh sugar exfoliator. I love all sorts of stuff.

Vanessa Cornell:
Favorite TV show or something you’re watching right now, besides The Bold Type, of course?

Joanna Coles:
Oh, thank you. I’m really enjoying Mare of Easttown with Kate Winslet on HBO. Yeah, she’s really good. Although someone was telling me that they felt Hollywood was now divided between two tropes you either have to look like Nicole Kidman, which was just impossibly young. And clearly, I think she’s gorgeous. And I like her very much and certainly put her on covers and always found her intelligent and interesting and very good actor. But there’s something quite odd about the way she looks now or sort of otherworldly about the way she looks, or Frances McDormand. And there’s no somehow there’s no wire in between and Kate Winslet in Mare of Easttown if you haven’t seen it, it’s a really good show is veering towards Francis McDormand in the show every now and then she gets a moment to look pretty, but I think it’s a really interesting portrayal of a woman in midlife, and very complicated, not very likable character. So I really enjoying that show. And then I’ve been watching some British shows, actually, another show on HBO I really liked is called the murders at white horse farm, which is based on a true murder story in Britain that happened 20 years ago, and it’s really well done. And I also really enjoyed another British show called the split, which is on Amazon, I think now, and it’s about mother on two daughters to a divorce lawyers and they have their own domestic lives that they bring to their office may have their clients divorces. And it’s just a very well done, brilliantly acted show with Nicola Walker in the lead role, and she’s excellent, and Stephen Mangan, it’s very, very good.

Vanessa Cornell:
Okay, last question. If you could travel anywhere, right now, where would you go? COVID aside.

Joanna Coles:
I used to spend at least sort of 10 days a month in LA. And I went for the first time last month and it was just glorious. And I’ve really missed going to Europe because obviously I didn’t grow up in New York. So I’m actually going to London next month, which I’m extremely excited about. So not anywhere, outlandish. I’m just very excited to get back to traveling as I used to not as much as I used to I was definitely over traveled, but I’m really looking forward to them backing to seeing friends in London.

Vanessa Cornell:
I wanted to thank you, Joanna for being with us. So fascinating, as always

Joanna Coles:
Thank you!

Vanessa Cornell:
Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, we welcome you to stay close and discover more of our offerings. Check us out on Instagram at @nushu or visit nushu.com for more.